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lumberjack_jeff

(33,224 posts)
62. Point by point
Thu Aug 9, 2012, 07:32 PM
Aug 2012
Is your claim here that we are not a patriarchal culture?


No, but I think you're confused about what the patriarchy entails. The violence against women act (in which the sentence is determined based on the gender of the victim), the male only draft, the fact that 92% of workplace fatalities are men, the preferential treatment given to women in school are all dependent on one basic social principle: women's lives are more valuable, and that men are comparatively dispensible.

That's the patriarchy. Men make the decisions on how best to protect the women. Rape isn't sanctioned by the patriarchy and never was.

I start from we are in fact a patriarchal culture, this is a male dominated society. This is about as controversial to me as racism or homophobia.


I disagree, and looking at any meaningful statistic of collective social health, men are at the bottom of the list. If it's a male dominated society, it manifests itself in odd ways. Men get less education, go to jail, commit suicide, die on the job, are more likely to be unemployed, die of preventable causes and are victims of violence more often than women. Is the fact that blacks suffer all of the previous social problems relative to whites, evidence of their dominant role?

But my point is not "rape is acceptable behavior", my point is that rape is stunningly frequent and we should do something about that. One suggestion I have is that we should change the cultural norms for acceptable behavior with respect to women in public. Every time I try to get you all to understand why this would be a good idea, a lot of people here seem to think I am calling them rapists or equating overt sexual propositions with rape. Overt sexual propositions to complete strangers are RUDE, but they aren't rape. Is that clear? They are an invasive intrusion into somebody else's space, and are, in my opinion, appropriate only in circumstances where it is clearly understood that this is expected. The behavior is rude precisely because we have A HUGE PROBLEM WITH RAPE. I don't know how to get through to you all that the women receiving these uninvited advances CANNOT DETERMINE WHICH SORT OF MAN YOU ARE. In fact I give up.


My approach toward "doing something" about the crime of rape is identical to my approach toward doing something about bank robbery or murder. Support laws that inflict appropriate punishments on the perpetrators.

But to you that's obviously not enough. Maybe if I rend my garments, gnash my teeth loudly, and proclaim my culpability for the criminal behavior of others, stupid frat boys won't risk prison by having sex with drunk girls.

Keep it up men, this is the world you have made, no problem, nothing wrong, no need to change.


According to at least one study, the incidence of rape has declined 85% in the last 30 years.
http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=913013

Is that "the world I have made"? If so, maybe a little credit is due.

One last point. In the men's group there won't be universal agreement on any issue. The above is my view, to which I am as entitled as you are to yours. It is not about doctrine, it is about what interests you.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

No. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #1
I think it's more like all men are "potential" rapists.. Upton Aug 2012 #2
that is a novel, and what you posted is a literary device known as hyperbole. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #3
Since we're throwing out numbers.. Upton Aug 2012 #5
Nobody will up and say rape isnt a problem. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #6
okay rape is a problem. and proving rape is a problem loli phabay Aug 2012 #7
ipad much? Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #8
You equated a man who talked to a woman in an elevator with a serial killer/rapist 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #10
no i did not, you said that, I didn't. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #16
You can look at a random person for a few seconds and determine her entire life-experience 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #17
4th law... MadrasT Aug 2012 #23
Perhaps there should be men's and women's elevators 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #28
again you just trivialize the problem. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #30
Raping women in elevators is not considered acceptable 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #32
The gulf in male perceptions isn't "rape is/isn't a problem". lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #35
(b) is the one I take issue with. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #45
Point by point lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #62
Rape is a tremendous problem. Bonobo Aug 2012 #11
Treat the attractive strange woman as you would any other stranger. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #19
You layed out an awful lot of straw. Bonobo Aug 2012 #33
Lets be clear..are you suggesting 16% of men are rapists? Upton Aug 2012 #12
No I said you could not sustain your assertion that 0.1% of men commit all the rapes. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #14
What percentage of men do *you* think are rapists? 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #18
I have no idea. It is related to the rape experience level for women. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #21
Well logically it has to fall somewhere between 1 person and 51 million men (16%) 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #24
My guess: 5-10%. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #26
You actually believe about 1 in 15 of the men you meet are rapists? 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #31
16% of women have a rape experience in their lives. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #36
FULL STOP 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #38
"And actual rape only, not elevator talkers or porn watchers." Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #46
That had nothing to do with the 16% statistic 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #47
according to this study its about 4 percent Mosby Aug 2012 #57
There are a couple of studies cited in that piece. redqueen Aug 2012 #58
Yes, and the take away Mosby Aug 2012 #64
Yep, a small number among those who aren't caught, & none of them consider what they did as rape. nt redqueen Aug 2012 #72
So, in other words..most men aren't rapists. Upton Aug 2012 #59
So you agree that 0.1 % was total bullshit. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #63
This message was self-deleted by its author Upton Aug 2012 #65
Thank you.. Upton Aug 2012 #66
I'm good with 4% too. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #61
Since one in 18 men (5.5%) are CURRENTLY behind bars or being monitored, lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #67
No, it doesn't. redqueen Aug 2012 #71
Thanks for the clarification. That stands to reason. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #73
Does the CDC study work for you as a reputable source? MadrasT Aug 2012 #15
I'm curious what those stats would be if they included statutory rape 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #20
you seem to be a bit desperate to disqualify the data. nt. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #22
Pointing out flaws in the data collection 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #25
read the study. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #27
I actually linked to that same study yesterday 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #29
it IS A PROBLEM. and IT SHOULD BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #51
This message was self-deleted by its author eek MD Aug 2012 #34
you tell me. I don't know. I objected to the assertion that 99.9% arent. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #37
Do you not understand math? 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #39
Perpetrator data MadrasT Aug 2012 #40
I tried my best but couldn't find any of those articles 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #41
You've been presented with the data to back up my assertion that the number Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #43
The claims presented are based on what appears to be dubious data 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #49
Arguing about statistics is a losing proposition. lumberjack_jeff Aug 2012 #44
Which is exactly my problem with all this 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #50
This message was self-deleted by its author eek MD Aug 2012 #56
I'm having a problem with "1 guy rapes 160 women." Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #42
No, that's not my argument at all 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #48
You've carefully avoided stating anything. Warren Stupidity Aug 2012 #55
You may come to find 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #69
This message was self-deleted by its author eek MD Aug 2012 #53
It wasn't hyperbole Major Nikon Aug 2012 #54
It's remarkable really 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #13
Here's how I had it explained to me once... RevStPatrick Aug 2012 #4
Yes there are 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #9
There were the famous flaps on some College Campuses in the late 80s, early 90s Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #52
Ah, the weird old days ProudToBeBlueInRhody Aug 2012 #60
After the Duke case 4th law of robotics Aug 2012 #68
Yeah, those sorts of tactics are beyond the pale. Warren DeMontague Aug 2012 #70
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